Punk School of Magic🎙️ WITHIN ORB with Jenn Zhart
I have become allergic to texts. After 10 years of academia-pilled - prioritizing knowledge as defined by the academy, going among people who demand a citation for every take at the expense of other ways of knowing, hating my brain for its neurotype/concussion-induced processing - I have violently course corrected.
When Jenn reached out to me to do an episode of her podcast for CAELI institute, I said yes.
Then she sent me the prep questions.
I knew of Within Orb because of my illustrious compatriots who have been guests. As it turns out, Within Orb is a podcast about books.
First line of prep q’s: what book would you recommend to a beginners in astrology? Well, the things is…
“I’m not sure I have ever finished a book on astrology…I learned from a teacher, and non-hierarchical learning models. So unless you want to do an episode on that…”
Jenn said, “Hell yeah let’s do an episode on that.”
We learn from each other as we talk (did you know: Sirius is 40 times brighter than our sun), & we rejoice in the fact that we have learned from the more-than-human and human.
This podcast episode shows, with a demonstration, the way people with alternate learning styles supplement their magical education via the power of their social circle: by having inspiring convos with knowledge keepers - friends, broader community, elders and teachers (Hawk’s MC in the 11th house hard at work).
The conversation between Jenn & Hawk demos that principle in microcosm, by being one such conversation, and referencing others. “I think the things we covered in the podcast are a testament to where books actually come from” (jenn)
It’s ‘the punk episode’ because it offers a way in that isn’t through conventional means.
We talk how to break into the astro scene, the connection between music & astrology, where texts belong (and what happens when we do without), near-term astrology scene history, and more.
Listen to 'the punk episode’ of Within Orb in the player above. Transcript below, scroll further for timestamped sections.
Transcript
Jenn Zhart: Hello my name is Jenn Zhart, and welcome to Within Orb, a production of the Celestial Arts Education Library, a podcast bringing people together around the love of astrology, books. Join me as I interview people about the astrology books that changed their life and practice.
You can support the podcast at withinorb.com. Welcome to another episode of Within ORB. And today we're motoring down to Portland, Oregon to meet Hawk Grubb. Hawk, welcome to the show
HAWK:
Thanks, Jenn. Yes. Happy to be here.
JZ:
Yes. I'm happy to have you. And I I've been really wanting to have you on and when I asked you, you were like, well, do we have to talk about books? And I was like, you know what?
No. Because there are more ways to get into astrology than just books. And so I was really curious to hear. This is like the punk episode of like the no-books-books-talk. And I wanna see what unfolds.
So how did you get into astrology?
HAWK:
Great question. I was practicing magic before I was into astrology. So that kind of unfolded somewhat organically, because in Western occultism, there's obviously a lot of astrology, but not the kind that has birth charts involved. And, yeah, I was learning it, and then I realized, like, on my tarot deck, there were all these, like, you know, there's astrology on my tarot deck. And I love a good, like, codex.
I love a good system of understanding reality that offers a complete framework that could potentially encompass everything. And, yeah, it pulled me in from there.
JZ:
Yeah.
HAWK:
Yeah. The how, I guess, like, how did it actually transpire that I now know anything at all about astrology, is that Adam Elenbaas just happened to have a yoga studio down the street from my house.
JZ:
Wow.
HAWK:
Classic 3rd house sun ruling the 9th situation.
JZ:
Wow. So you're early days at Sky House Yoga.
HAWK:
Yes. Exactly.
JZ:
That's amazing.
HAWK:
Yeah. I lived in Silver Spring right where that studio was.
JZ:
Right. I once got into a car accident in Silver Spring.
HAWK:
Oh my god. I'm so sorry about that.
JZ:
That’s why it's memorable to me. Oh my gosh. Anyway anyway. So we're on early days of Sky House Yoga. That's so cool.
So were you taking yoga classes?
HAWK:
No. I think I literally got served a targeted ad on Facebook
JZ:
Wow.
HAWK:
For this class that he was doing. It was like, you know, I was, like, absorbing through the, like, early available channels of cafe astrology and, like, you know, I think I read, like, 4 sentences of “the only astrology book you'll ever need.”
JZ:
Like, I don't need this.
HAWK:
And I was just like, Yeah. In some respect, they were right because I didn't have not read many other astrology books since then, but which is kind of like the theme of this conversation, I guess.
JZ:
For sure.
HAWK:
And Yeah. So I got the targeted ad and it was like, I didn't really know what traditional astrology was at all, but I was like, well, like, seems kinda cool.
And then I just sat on the floor of the yoga studio in front of Adam for, like, 3 consecutive hours while he gave, a general overview of the entire framework of traditional astrology, house rulership, essential dignity as a concept that exists, etc. etc. And I was like, “oh my god.” The fact that it was a framework where its internal logic could help you extrapolate to other parts of its internal logic, and just hangs, in this kind of .. complete, metaphysically coherent way, really felt like what I had been missing from astrology. And then I was just all in.
JZ:
Yeah. There's a concreteness to that, or you said the word complete, but, yeah, there's a kind of beauty to that
HAWK: Beauty is a great word. I think that's exactly how it feels. I'm like, damn. It's so pretty.
It's just all, like, hanging together and, like, harmonizing. I think about how Apollo, like, rules both music and divination. And it's like, I don't think that's a coincidence. I think in order to do beautiful skill divination, you have to have, you know, a structure that allows you to understand, like, how things harmonize and, like, sing together.
JZ: Yeah. There's like an attunement… to tune in. Right? That's a musical word.
HAWK: Yeah.
JZ: The more I'm looking into things, even in book form though, I'll say the more it comes back to music, like the music of the spheres or the interval between planetary orbit, you know, Kepler was going into that with sound and the Germans in the early 20th century were going bonkers over music, really. You know? Like, all the top of the pop astrologers had something musical going on. Yeah. It's so cool.
Are you musical?
HAWK:
I am, actually. I studied music long before I I studied magic. I was like a classically trained flute player. I played flute in the jazz band, like growing up. I was in a youth orchestra.
It was like briefly first chair flutist in my middle school. And then I was in punk bands, like growing up, I played the drums and yeah, now I do like singer-songwriter, folk music stuff. I play the guitar, and that's been, like, the longest standing instrument for me. Yeah. And I actually just downloaded my first ever DAW, so I can admit I'm gonna try and make some electronic music, I think, that's coming down the pipeline.
JZ: You can make talismanic music using astrology.
HAWK: I'm here for that. I really am.
JZ:
Question for you about the musical side of things. Like, I know you work with Apollo, and you brought up the music/divination aspects of what Apollo rules, but did your experiences with being a musician and having a a sense of… because it's like its own language. Right? And and I'm wondering if that kind of framework allowed you to absorb astrology easier because you were already working inside of something that was linked to the planetary imminences or essences.
HAWK:
Yeah. I don't actually, I've never really thought about that directly. I think that I could definitely connect it. I think when I draw a divinatory conclusions, it feels very much like those perfect moments where you're, like, playing in a group, and the whole mind like, the group mind, like, coalesces for a second and just, like, generates a really beautiful, harmonious groove together. And it just kinda feels like you're like,
oh, yeah. Hell yeah. We, like, hit the truth just then. That's sick. And I think that experience really plays into my consultation practice where I'm, like, vibing with somebody and using our knowledge of, like, reality through the lens of astrology, tarot, like, what have you. It, like, generates this kind of otherworldly experience of, like, harmony and union.
And being able to, like, get out get your thinking brain out of the way to, like, let that happen is, like, that's the transferable skill, I think, that I have for music. It's being like, okay. Like, shut up cognition. Now we're gonna do a different kind of cognition.
JZ: That's awesome. I love that.
HAWK: No offense to my thinking mind. It's very, it's a very good guy. He's doing a great job.
[for more on getting the thinking mind out of the way, try "how to break up with thinking and just be friends" by ta’alumot]
JZ:
Yeah. Yeah. So after we get up off the floor with Adam Elenbaas at Sky House Yoga in Silver Falls, Maryland, where did you go on your journey to absorb astrology into your somatic sphere?
HAWK:
First, I got a reading with Adam because I was like, “this is tight. What can it do?" And he did something that I had never seen modern astrology do, which was pull something out about another human being that I know from my natal chart. And I was like, how did you know that?'
JZ: From looking at my birth??
meme credit @phosphorastro
HAWK: My friend drew made this meme that's just like “other people? in my natal chart?? it's more likely than you might think.”
JZ: No. I love that. That's one of my favorite things to do.
HAWK: So, yeah, that it blew my mind. Yeah. And I was just like, okay. Well, obviously, I don't… there's some shit about astrology that I do not understand, because I can't do that.
And then I took 2 years of coursework with Adam, and then also his horary class. So that took me, like, 3 years. I I was pretty much, like, set up to have, like, a lot- I got lucky that I'd started working with him as more and more courses were becoming available, so there was this nice, like, long form runway, like, starting to stretch out in front of me where I was like, oh, nice.
So that was pretty sick.
JZ:
Mhmm.
HAWK:
So basically, 3 years of direct coursework, and class sizes were pretty small. And I got involved with my fellow students. I found Astro Twitter in 2017, which was, like, just in its nascent form as like the place for trad astrologers to be talking to each other. And that I think really that actually had like a huge impact on me as well.
JZ:
Yeah. Did it survive the transition to x, or is is it living somewhere else now, Astro Twitter?
HAWK:
It's hard to say. I think the the moment of total coalescence of, like, everybody being in the same place at the same time in an inside of an algorithmic system where, like, we were all actually… it felt like we were all in a large room together? I think that moment has passed.
JZ: Yeah.
HAWK: But, you know, there's still a way to find community with other astrologers on that website. But it's no longer the kind of thing where I'm like, “no brainer. You have to go to Twitter,” you know what I mean, to, like, talk to other people.
I'm starting to recommend Instagram probably more heavily for that. And I think we're starting to see this trend of smaller, like, “walled garden” communities cropping up that are either paywalled or just, like, quiet group chat vibes. That's what I've been noticing.
JZ:
Wow. A little more not seen by the algos. Right?
HAWK:
Yeah. Exactly. Which is hard if you're new because it's like, how do you get in?
JZ: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great question. I wouldn't know in that way. Yeah.
How would you see someone potentially getting in?
HAWK:
I think that my Leo Moon ass, you know, I have a Leo Moon in the 9th, so I'm like- my suggestion would just be to be yourself, like, super visibly on the internet. Create your own content. And my goal, specifically, when I started making content on Twitter is I like I was like, I want these people who are smart and interesting and like the thing I like… I want them to know I exist. And I want them to wanna talk to me, without it being me, like, running up to them being, like, “oh, hey. Like, do you wanna be my friend?” Like, I want to generate a sense that, like, I am cool, I know what I'm talking about, and I want you to know, the way I know, that we have something in common, and we wanna be friends.
JZ: Yeah.
HAWK:
Because it was true, in a lot of cases, but nobody has a way to know that about me if I'm not, like…if i’m never showing up on the internet. You know?
JZ:
Yeah. Yeah. I think that can be terrifying for some people.
HAWK:
A 100%. It was very difficult for me, honestly. I I had a, anonymous account with no name and no face on it for a really long time.
JZ:
Wait. You lurk yourself? Were you, like, lurking yourself? Like, you're my public, You're my private-
HAWK:
Nooo I was just at the @occultproblems for the first, like, you know, 5 years that I was on Twitter. Like Yeah. From 2014 to to 2019. And then I went to Norwac, and Chris Brennan, of all people, was like, “you have to put your face on your profile.”
And he even, like, @-ed Austin to bully me, collectively. And the nicest, like, most like, like, we've all been their way, because I know Austin posted under a pseudonym for a really long time in his early career.
JZ:
Baron from whatever. Yeah. He was Baron something or another on Myspace.
HAWK:
That was totally before my time, but Chris, like, tagged him in. And was just like, ask this guy about putting your actual face on the Internet. Yeah. And that, I think, the combined forces of my excitement about them doing that led me to do it. Because I was going to Norwac, and I was like, “none of you motherfuckers are gonna know who I am.”
Like, what am I gonna do? Like, walk around with a little mask in my profile picture. Like, this isn't gonna work.
JZ:
That's actually funny.
Did you notice a shift then? And once you attached your picture, too
HAWK:
yeah? I think so. I'm not sure it was that conscious, but it's like yeah. I think so. It was my picture and my name.
I think it's just easier for people to remember, and it's easier for people to be like, oh, that's a human being. It's not just, like, part of the sea of anonymous accounts who are spectating and not really participating. Because I come from, like, festival culture, if that makes sense, which is, like, part of my background. Like, after punk music came the festival scene. And there's, like, a difference between being, like, a patron and a participant where you can, like, pay $300 and go to the festival, or you can, like, volunteer, work on crews, like, bring your own theme camp.
Like, there's always these opportunities to create the scene.
JZ:
Mhmm.
HAWK:
And I think that's actually that ethos translates really well to my experience in, like, the astrology and occult community. It's like, you can totally be a consumer and that's completely allowed. But if you have something to offer and, like, 'bring to the festival, as it were, like, that's sick. And other people will see you doing it and be like, oh, this is dope. I'm gonna, like, come hang out at your theme camp.
You know what I mean?
JZ:
Yeah! Yeah. I like that way of thinking about the different type of what you had called walled gardens popping up. It's like more like theme camps. You wanna hang out over here and do Orphic Hymns? great.
I can give you a suite of people doing that right now. You know? And then there's others doing other stuff. And if you love that, go there.
HAWK:
Yeah. I'd love to make, like, a little index on my website or something that's just kind of like, “are you into this, like, specific sub niche?” Because I'm this is one of my blessings as a human being is I have been, like, just surrounded by geniuses at all times, it seems like.
JZ:
Well, you call them in with that Leo moon shining in 9th. You'd think you have no fear or you, you know, you've been able to tame the fear of being able to be yourself and say, like, hey. Here I am, and I'm gonna do this. And it's like, oh, cool.
HAWK:
Yeah. I made it a priority. Like, it really did get, like, a lot of my energy for a really long time.
You can't let your self-esteem be impacted by it not working, especially if you're not making it, like, the [first or] second-most important thing you're doing in life, which is what I was doing at the time that I was doing that.
So if you're just, like, “oh, I made 3 posts and nobody cared. Like, I must suck… more than Hawk maybe.” No. That's not what's happening.
JZ:
Well, some people feel rejection with the lack of engagement. Right? Like, it's like this sort of like- oh no!!
HAWK:
Right, like “Perhaps I am trash.”
JZ:
Yeah. But you kept going. And I think now, you know, you you're a fixture in a way.
HAWK:
Yeah. I have to keep doing it regrettably. It was just a nightmare. It's like you can never just like hop off the train.
JZ:
Yeah.
HAWK:
I mean, I'm mostly kidding. I really enjoy it. Obviously, the leo moon is like, “pay attention to me.
Yay. I'm shining.!”
Yeah. Yeah.
[CAELI-HYPE BREAK]
JZ: Imagine stepping into a room of 5,000 astrology books, turning a corner, and stepping into a room of 2,000 more. The celestial arts education library is every astrologer's dream and it can be yours. I invite you to come support CAELi before you can visit physically. Your support will mean the creation of 52 new episodes of Within Orb next year, 4 issues of the CAELi Review, our inaugural journal, and countless book talks, events, classes through our community. Visit our website, www.CAELi.institute/support to select your level of care.
Please help support CAELi into the future, our future, so that we may study the future together. Thank you for listening. Please enjoy the rest of the show.
JZL
You know, I think astrology grabs you, and it doesn't need to happen only through books. These relationships with peers and the conversations…
Like, books are just ossified conversations if you think about it.
HAWK:
Damn. I love that. I, like, wanna write that down. That goes so hard, honestly, because that's, like, so connected to my whole ethos of, like, the friendship lineage, which is just, like, a term that I have coined lately to talk about my whole strategy for existing as an occultist.
JZ:
Go on.
HAWK:
Well, I just…there's always been these, like, hierarchical modes of, like, teacher student transmission. And I have this thought that actually, it's less like that than the 19th century British occultists would with, like, who do lodge magic would, like, lead us to believe that it's less this chain of transmission from, like, master to student, you know? And, like, less like a Jedi order and more just like a social circle, you know? Mhmm. So the concept of, like, a friendship lineage and, like, having just, like, the homies, you know, like, being the your main source of, like, education.
Other brilliant people who are, like, super fascinated by the same things you're fascinated with and are committing just huge amounts of time and energy to being smart on those topics, and then, like, info-dumping to you and, like, getting really excited. Like, I've learned so much more that way than I have from reading.
JZ:
Yeah.
HAWK:
And I've learned more completely. You know what I mean? Because I get this beautiful distillation of 700 hours that the person has put in to, like, being fascinated by a topic. Right? And you're like, swipe. Thank you.
JZ:
But you're giving back too. I mean, it's an exchange, you know, because you're also doing your own 700 hours, and then that conversation is mind blowing because it's like, here's your swap.
You can have this tech and I'll give you that tech.
HAWK:
Exactly. It's like this beautiful, like, web that exists. And that's the visual image that I have for the nonhierarchical friendship lineage is that it's it's less like a ladder and more like a web.
JZ:
Yeah. There was this moment in graduate school when I was sitting there, I think it was either the 18th century class, which really had my eyeballs rolling in the back of my head because of what that century did to astrology, obviously. Right?
HAWK:
Yeah.
JZ:
And I and I noticed that the professor in that course was not really my kind of teacher, and I was learning more from my fellow students than from the instructor, and brought that up. And at some point, you know, they were like, “yeah. I mean, at this level, you're going to be learning from each other more than any of us can impart something to you.” You know, it's like everybody in the course is noticing different things and they're learning altogether. It's not just the top-down.
HAWK:
I actually love that because that is so relevant to the way that I wanna teach and learn astrology and magic at this point. Is it's like, I want to be communing with other people who are at, like, the graduate school level.
JZ:
Yeah. It's like a seminar and not like one of these monster broadcasting weed out courses. Right?
HAWK:
Right. Well, those are yeah. And those are really important because it's like if a 1,000 people wanna learn intro to astrology, it's like, great. Everybody come over here and then we could get you all sorted out at the same time.
JZ:
Yeah. Yeah. But if you wanna drive your car up the complicated terrain, you know, that's gonna be less people doing that.
HAWK:
A 100%. Yeah. It's funny. I'm, like, imagining, like, a rock climbing culture. We're all just, like, sitting, like, at the edge of a very, like, perilous crag being, like, “oh, sick, man.” Like, “you really crushed that.”
JZ:
Yeah. I know. There's a new movie new movie…
What's it called? I think it's about that guy who climbed El Cap in Yosemite, and now he's climbing something-
HAWK:
Alex Honnold?
JZ:
Yeah. He basically goes to Greenland and has a film crew with him to talk about global warming and climate change. And Oh.
He takes them with him as a pretext to like he's like, “so what? Another movie about a dude bro climbing an unclimbed face? Like, that's boring. I wanna do something good with my platform, so I'm gonna bring along a scientific crew.” And I noticed that when he was commenting on his fellow climber going up, he was just like really encouraging.
And this person was like clinging to the edge of a very steep rock. And he's just like, “nice move. Yo." You know? Like
HAWK:
Yes. That's so like- I love this piece of climber culture. I'm- Yeah- I was also a big rock climber in college and, like, I love that about climber culture. And I I see it with my fellow pro astrologers and magic people, like, on Instagram and stuff.
You know? They'll, like, say something wildly brilliant. And everyone will just be like, nice move. Yeah. Right?
JZ: Like, it's funny, like, doing chart work, interpretation as though you're doing a problem on the face of a rock, and it's like, I got there this way. It's like, no. I'm gonna get there this way. And it's like, look, we got to the same place. Totally different.
HAWK:
Yeah. I feel that way when I hang out with my evolutionary astrologer friend, Sabrina Monarch. Like, we'll just be like talking about the same chart and it's, like, completely different strategies for understanding, but we'll be able to have these heady, high level conversations like that. You know, the image of Plato’s symposium.
JZ:
Mhmm.
HAWK: Where it's just like, they're all walking and being dramatic philosophers. That's how I feel with my astrology buddies.
Classic tumblr meme, featuring Raphael’s fresco the school of athens.
JZ:
So you brought in a book, Plato's Symposium. There it is.
HAWK:
That’s a picture, to be fair. I'm talking about a picture.
But I have, you know, I had to talk about that book twice in my academic life. And then one of them, I think it was in that one, doesn't Plato talk about love? And the professor just goes, “what is love?” And I'm like, what does this pertain to?
Like, what are you talking about?
HAWK:
Yeah. I tried to read The Republic recently, and, oh my god, dude.
JZ:
You were gonna get to The Myth of Ur?
HAWK:
Exactly. It's at the very fucking end. I tried to get through the entire book, because I thought it would be pertinent, but it's no. It's like literally just a sidebar at the end.
JZ:
I know. It's really short, but it's like, okay. Line up. Pick your lot.
HAWK:
It's so irrelevant to the rest of the text. I was so not expecting that.
JZ:
But it's so fundamental to cosmology.
HAWK:
I know. It's very odd. It's like, literally, like, it's as if you're having this giant lecture with the bros, and then, like, all of a sudden this guy, like, interrupts and starts telling you about a dream he had. Like, that's kinda how it feels.
JZ:
But that's the important part. That's how you know it's important.
HAWK: Yeah. Yeah.
JZ: Yeah. Like, there's this thing about utopias, Thomas Moore's utopia. Any utopia, they're like, yeah. I was on this ship and then I don't know how we got here. I must have fallen asleep.
And so it's like you can't find where the utopia's at because they just completely elide or, like, hide how they got there.
HAWK:
Yeah. That's just relevant to, like, the whole, like, kind of theme of this convo where it's like, when you're, like, learning magic or whatever, it helps. It's like, there is the first 12 chapters of the Republic version where you can like discourse in a very orderly manner, or you can just kinda, like, have a spiritual holy spirit experience. And, like, maybe, like, that part is actually equally valuable, if not more useful to some.
JZ:
Right. I mean, you got to astrology through magic, and I'd say moving to the Pacific Northwest, I began doing plant alchemy and some animal works with the school with Robert Allen Bartlett.
HAWK:
Oh, I've heard a lot of things about that lately for some reason. It's just popped up.
JZ:
Yeah. They're relaunching it as the TriStar Academy. And, working with the application of alchemy that does have a kind of celestial counterpart in a way of just, you know, when you should be doing what, obviously, But also the kind of things of like, oh, here's a Marshall plant or a Venus plant. And then knowing actually that plants are very complicated and don't like just being by 1 plant that you can do all this very, like, fractal, oh, but the stems are always Mercury no matter what, and the roots are always Saturn no matter what. And so you have like parts of the plant that are planetary, and then as a whole, the plant is generally aligned with this or that.
And Blagrave talks about, like, if you're talking about dandelion or something, like you've gotta get it. If you want the solar aspects, you use these timings. And if you want Jupiter aspects, use those timings. All to say though is that the experience of making something taught me more about astrology than reading a book.
HAWK:
Yes. It's like direct communion. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah.
I'm actually like, wanna like write down what you just said about dandelion. Cause I'm like, wait, this sounds fascinating. What is this? I go find that.
JZ:
I have an article about it. I can send you.
HAWK:
That'd be great.
JZ:
It's on astro.com and it'll be in the show notes, everyone. Yeah. The, I think that complexity, even in the past, you know, our astrological ancestors were definitely thinking in more complex terms than simple binaries.
HAWK:
100%. I was just talking to Eric Purdue before I got on this call. And he was saying something about the fact that a lot of like books in ancient transmission of information were kinda closer to, like, notes that somebody wrote down for their students, than they are to text that were supposed to have, like, a wide release to be purchased by consumers. You know what I mean? Like, that whole model just, like, didn't exist at all.
It was just like, “oh, like, you are my student. I am teaching you the arts. Here are the bones, basically. And I want you to have us to reference so you can remember all the shit we are talking about.” Right?
Because it's actually about the shit we are talking about and not about this, like, text. And I think right now, this is a classic “age of air” thing versus “age of earth” thing where, now we have widespread transmissions of ideas. They can travel far and wide beyond accessibility to an individual teacher. So I think that text transmissions of any kind - [linguistic] transmissions of any kind are, like, filling this gap, where it's like you don't have a convenient community of people to talk to 1 on 1 about your thing. It's like, excellent. I'm gonna read, like, 17 books. And that's tight.
JZ:
But it doesn't replace that human conversation.
HAWK:
If you don't have the human conversation, like, you can have the divine conversation. Like, you can have the conversation, like, with dandelion. Right? And be like, what is your deal, actually? You can directly interface with the spirits of the arts you're trying to, like, learn.
JZ:
Right. Like how you met Apollo. How did you meet Apollo?
HAWK:
Oh, I was, like, harangued by, Cromens, by crow omens, for a long time. And he's a deity I've just been aware of for a really long time. And, you know, I always say this to my students and my mentees and my clients where I'm like, it's always the guy that you're like, oh, it couldn't possibly be that guy. He's too cool.
JZ:
You know what I mean?
HAWK:
Yeah. You know, he has always had that, like, kinda, like, golden-boy vibe. And this is meaning making after the fact. But I've met other people who've had similar experiences where it's like, I think once you get sufficiently good at divination, he, like, drafts you. Like, for his team.
[collective laughter]
JZ:
I'm feeling subpar. I haven't been drafted by Apollo.
HAWK:
I think it's yeah. I mean, it's obviously a very specific type of person. Maybe it requires to have a Leo 9th also. It's like you're, you're like- it's sun draft. Right?
So I think it's like, if you're sufficiently if you're a specific brand of human being, which to me, I'm like a Leo Moon wand person who is a lifelong musician and does divination. And I like to, like, do extreme sports and, like, go fast. You know what I mean? Who also fucks with the Hellenic pantheon.
So it was just kind of like, there's literally nothing missing there.
JZ:
I love it.
HAWK:
And then it was, like, once I, like, really committed to being a career diviner, he was just, like, “hello.”
JZ:
Welcome home. Right?
HAWK:
Yeah. And then I was like, I don't know what you want from me. And he was like… it wasn't like answered.
Jenn: Mhmm.
Hawk: But he just kind of like showed up really hard.
JZ: Mhmm.
HAWK:
I started working with Asclepius first, and then I think it kind of…transitioned. Because Apollo, like, scared me for some reason. I was like, “I've heard like negative things about you from your mythosphere, and you just are terrifying in this really like profound way,” which is attested to in myth.
Like, he has a face that delivers inscrutable and disturbing prophecy, basically. And, like, people were afraid to utter that name, like, that version of his name.
JZ:
Wow.
HAWK:
And I think that really shows up in his, like, energy. You're just like, damn, you're like, low key very scary. So I was a little bit-
JZ:
Hence, the crows. Right?
HAWK:
Yeah. I guess so. I don't know. I wasn't scared of Asclepius because, I mean, he's like more human in that way, if that makes sense. He's like kind of by nature, more, like, a person.
He's, like, an emissary to, like, the material world. Because he's, like, half divine, half human. His mother was, like, a a regular old human being. And he's, like, front-facing with the medicine aspect. He's like, “we're doing health.”
And so I'm like, “okay. Well, that's very pro-human.”
JZ: We're gonna keep you on earth a little longer.
HAWK:
Exactly. But with Apollo, you kinda like lose that humanity a little bit. It just becomes more frightening, I think.
JZ:
For sure. For sure.
Well, I think too then, you know, in that connection component with the human, you know, human beings are meant to connect to other human beings. And I remember learning something from Bernadette Brady when she was, it was an audio recording of her teaching about fixed stars, and she said, “there's a lot here.” There's 72 at least on her personal pantheon of which ones she thinks are important. And then you talk to Cam Cassidy and you learn about 600 other ones. But anyway, so Bernadette's like, okay, 72.
How are you even gonna begin, you know, with basic ABC astrology, you get 12 signs, roughly 10 planets, a lot of other celestial factors, you know, threes and fours, and suddenly you've got 72 fixed stars that are all over the map. How do you do that? And she said, pretend the stars are someone you're meeting in a class or in your neighborhood. And then it's easy to remember their name because you give them a face and you relate to it as though you're meeting someone new. And that to me was just this mind blowing tip of like, of course, that's exactly right.
I mean, the ability to have facial recognition with people is a lot higher than looking at a line of text and trying to remember a fact, you know?
HAWK:
Totally. Yeah. And I think that's one of the huge advantages, this like huge, like, wave of animist astrology, like, brings to the table where people are, like now the overlap of magic and astrology is something of a no brainer, I think, to a lot of trad astro's, but it wasn't like that. Even in 2017, when I first broke into the wider community, people weren't doing that. Austin was doing it verbally.
I like, that was the person I saw in my limited view, basically. That was who I saw doing it. But now that it's become so much more normalized, it's like, well, you aren't meeting somebody. Like, you're meeting the star. Like, that is happening.
JZ:
Yeah. And if you do any outside observation at night and you see, like, the light in your eyeball, it is immediate. It's pretty… it's almost like space stops existing and there's this direct contact. You know?
HAWK:
yeah. I'm thinking about Sirius right now who just, like, strobes violently in the sky.
Oh, God. That star is insane.
JZ:
40 times brighter than our sun.
HAWK:
wHAT
JZ:
Yeah.
HAWK:
[awestruck laughter].
That's awesome. I love that. Yeah. I was thinking about it's fun that we got to Apollo because I'm actually, like, I didn't they didn't think about this when we sat down, but I'm looking at your Vesta card that you handed out at I think it was Norwac.
But I saw you give a talk on these oils. Like, you made a series of Vesta oils that were, like, highly experimental in nature, and you gave a talk about it at AstoaMagia in 2022.
JZ: Sure. Yeah. Sure. I don't know. But it could have been 2021 [correct]. It was pandemic times.
HAWK: Anyway, it absolutely slapped. And I feel like it just this incredible example of like how we can use textual knowledge and then like bring that to bear on a more experiential form of doing magic and forming direct relationship. Like that was the crux. I feel like of the word game was that you built direct relationships with these like 7 vestal priestesses.
JZ: Yeah. They're still here. Yeah. They hang out. We hang out all the time.
Yeah. You got plucked by Apollo. I got completely wrestled to the mat by Vesta.
HAWK: Well, I was sitting in your class listening to you talk about this, and, like, my eyeballs stopped perceiving the world around me. And it was suddenly like, you have to make me an oil, like, from Apollo. He was like, hello. Are you listening?
JZ:
Ding ding ding.
HAWK:
And I did it. I did it. I made a pretty functional Apollo oil that's right over there. I'm I'm looking at it.
JZ:
Amazing.
And, like, the recipe, like, downloaded into my brain, like, while you were talking. And I don't know. I love that we got to this, like, thing because it just feels like a great example of how, like, human interconnection is like a great teacher. You know?
JZ:
Yeah. And then after these experiences, that's what becomes the book. Right? You live the book first, and then you can record it in book form or audio or or or. And I I appreciate you, you know, when I asked you to come on and I was like,
HAWK:
hey, let's talk astrology books.
JZ:
And you're like, let's not. And I'm like, awesome. Let's let's do that. You know what?
HAWK:
I had to, like, wrestle internally until I give you that response because I almost just kinda politely, like, stepped away
JZ:
Uh-huh.
HAWK:
From the option because I was, like, it's a podcast about text and, like, you know, I'm not really that kind of, like, learner and, like, I didn't wanna be, like, difficult. And I also like you know, it's like we exist in a world where that mode of knowing and that way of knowing is, like, really heavily prioritized, especially inside academia and in a lot of the overculture. And it was easier to say to you than it would have been to some other people, but, like, I had to, like, have a moment internally to be, like, willing to be, like, “actually, like, I'm not really a big book guy.” You know what I mean?
JZ:
Yeah. For sure. No, but I think that the things we've covered so far in our conversation are a testament to like where books actually come from. Ideally the best books come from this type of direct experience or the kinds of experiences that lead to an innovative take.
It's not just putting together quotes that other people have thought, you know, there's something lived about a living text that then lives on in its immortality after the author dies. And there's this transmission quality to it, but that transmission is always rooted in something that's alive or that has been alive or that has been experienced that is not on the page or taken from a page. And so you've invited that concept here very fully and allowed that to be present in, you know, this collection of what's your favorite book? And it's like, how about the one I'm living? You know, And there's people who've talked about non existent books or books they would write and such, but I think there's something else about, like, you can learn astrology without books and you can also innovate without books.
And it doesn't mean you're not informed, but, you know, you have a lot of as you've said, you have a lot of smart friends who probably distill that all that reading and give you the nugget. And then Well, they're reading books. Yeah. And you're like, oh, but I got all the gold nuggets here. You know?
I don't need to do that yourself as an activity because there's some people who are not made for that kind of thing, and that's fully okay.
HAWK:
Yeah. My friends are crushing it. Like, they're all over it. You know what I mean? And and we'll even have these conversations, and they'll be like, “oh, shit. That's attested to in x y z,” you know, and then I have a citation that I did not have at all before the conversation.
JZ:
Yeah.
HAWK:
I was thinking about the Orphic hymns, which is, like, one of our, like, most pointed at pieces of astrotheology in history. It's very well thought of, right, as a text. That is a series of individual things that were, like, drawn down from, like, direct experience with divinity. Right? Like, that's not just like a transmission of, like, some guy told me this, some guy told
JZ:
me this. You know what I mean? Yeah. It's like they're literal addresses to divine people
HAWK:
that were presumably created after, like, a long period of practice in relationship with those divine people. I mean, I have no idea, but it's just I don't know. I feel like this is, like, a great example of, like, a historical version of that.
JZ:
Yeah. And it becomes authoritative because it's old, but it's like, well, let's think about the the moment of its creation, you know, and so many things were orally transmitted that are devalued because they aren't the textual tradition. So, anyway, where can people find you?
HAWK:
I have a website, hawkstrology.com. I'm most active on Instagram in terms of the social media. So my @ is @hawkstrology, like Hawk like the bird, and then astrology, the back half of the word astrology.
JZ:
The back Yeah. Good. Very cool. Thank you for taking time to share your lily pad of astrology with us today on Within Orb.
HAWK:
Yeah. Thank you so much for having me and agreeing to do this atypical episode.
JZ:
Thank you for listening to Within Orb. To learn more about the Celestial Arts Education Library or to become a member, visit our website at ceili.institute. That's www.caeli.institute. If you enjoyed this episode, please help spread the word. Follow or subscribe to Within Orb in your pod catcher of choice, rate it 5 stars, or write us a happy review.
This helps others find the show. We also wanna give a big thanks to the indie band, the e block, for contributing their song Wake Up for our intro and outro music. You can find them at their website, e block band dot com. This is Jenn Zhartt, signing off for now. See you next time.
Timestamps:
00:31 – Hawk Grubb is a magician, diarist, and professional astrologer/magical mentor living in the Pacific Northwest. In another life you’d have found them delivering prophecy, bent over the cracks in the cave floor at Pytho. In this life, you can find them doing the same thing, but like, on the computer.
01:07 – How did Hawk get into astrology? Magic, music, and tarot helped on that front; they found astrology a great framework for understanding reality. But also, Hawk lived near Adam Elenbaas and his future wife Ashley’s yoga studio and wound up studying with Adam!
10:26 – Hawk shares how to get into astrology as a newbie and Chris Brennan’s advice to them back in the day. Oh, and if you have a 9th house Leo Moon, you’re in good company!
15:04 – Interlude: Join CAELi and snag yourself a Saturn stress-relief ball. (Yes, you read that right!)
15:51 – Hawk explains “the friendship lineage,” and the beauty of teaching and learning while communing with others. Less like a ladder and more like a web – woot!
20:40 – Book alert! Yep, the duo snuck a few titles into this no-book book talk: both The Symposium and The Republic by Plato get a mention, as does Utopia by Sir Thomas More.
22:41 – Tune in to hear about plant alchemy! (And check out Jenn’s dandelion article, Controversy and Conversion: Astrological Considerations for Potent Herbal Workings.)
25:49 – Hawk’s shares a story of Apollo
29:05 – Bernadette Brady’s fixed star tip, and a brief trip to the Orphic Hymns.
